World Cup: Daren Graves, Lecturer at Harvard Graduate School of Education, and Steve Ortega, an Associate at Harvard’s Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, like to call themselves “the Sports Profs.” They discuss the World Cup and the role of Latin American teams.
June Carolyn Erlick:
Welcome to Faculty Voices. Today we'll be talking about the World Cup and as your hostess June Carolyn Erlick, I have to admit that I know nothing about sports.
So for the first time, we have a double hitter here. I've invited Darren Graves, he's a lecturer at the Graduate School of Education and Steve Ortega, he's an affiliate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs.
Together, they call themselves the sports profs. So I'm going to ask them to teach me, we're showing the World Cup in our resource room for every game, and I ask, why should we even care about the World Cup?
Steve Ortega:
I guess that's a question you ask to sports profs, people who claim to have some knowledge in sports and the study of sports and things like that.
I'll let Darren start. Why watch the World Cup? As somebody who's watched World Cups for a long time, why do we do it?
Darren Graves:
Thinking about this from the angle of a person who may or may not be totally interested in the ins and outs of soccer or football, as you and I know of, but for a more casual fan, it's one of the few events happens every four years that really the entire world, the entirety of the world really comes around to sit together, to commune around a common event.
And in this case, in the form of the World Cup. And it doesn't even necessitate for your country to have a team playing in the World Cup, there's something about the universality of football, there's so many stories and that people latch onto through their own identity politics, through the difference that sort of global flows that we have, especially these days with media that you can connect with players across so many borders.
And so it just becomes a time, and unlike the United States, a lot of parts of the world, when the World Cup happens, things stop. Everything stops and work slows down, people gather around this. And now with the ways that people can communicate through media, social media, it really becomes this massive global event that just doesn't happen for many other things.
And I don't even think it's happened even as strongly around something like the Olympics. I think the World Cup has way more of that kind of influence than something like the Olympics or any other event that I can even think of really.
June Carolyn Erlick:
But why?
Steve Ortega:
I'll jump in. I think it's a chance to build community. There are three games a day in the group stages, so it's a place where people can come together in different places and they can cheer on their team and they can root and they can root for certain players.
And as Darren said, it's its exposure to this global event where you have players from Argentina and you have players from Brazil and Saudi Arabia and Australia and Japan. I mean, there's no other venue really outside of the Olympics where that type of experience takes place.
And that sort of an event happens and it's competition too. And I think people like competition and my team's going to win, or I'm going to adopt a team. I mean for fans who don't really have a team, it's a good thing to do. You watch enough games and you like one particular team and then before you know it, you're deeply involved in hoping they win the World Cup. So it's something that televisions and different bars and cafés all over the world, people gather to watch.
Darren Graves:
But I would also add, just real quickly that it's also tied up in global and identity politics too. So that when you said the whys, I think people start to get invested in teams or players or peoples within across borders, you know what I mean? Because it's also wrapped up in some of those political issues as well.
Steve Ortega:
I guess what we're want to know from you is who you going to end up rooting for?
June Carolyn Erlick:
Oh, that's a secret. Columbia's not playing. So I haven't made up my mind yet.
Is it a gendered experience?
Darren Graves:
Oh, interesting.
Steve Ortega:
That's a really interesting experience because obviously there are groups of people where you have mixed gender events where it's not just all men watching World Cup games.
Obviously the people playing in the games largely identify as men. I think it depends on where you're watching. I think maybe in some places it's more gendered than it is in other places where in other parts of the world, the people who come together are a variety of different types of people. But it is an opportunity for male bonding. I'm not going to...
Darren Graves:
It's a gendered experience. No, look, it's a gendered experience. I respectfully disagree in terms of, like you said, just what is the context, what are we gathering around in the first place, what is it that we're gathering around?
So yes in that, and football's doing a much better job of trying to broaden its audience when it comes to gender, but it is still a very male dominated, patriarchal kind of experience, like it just is.
And so we have to own that a little bit. And I think there's been a lot of movement, honestly, I don't want to bash it, we've seen growth in terms of the audience. We seen growths in terms of women's soccer and football worldwide.
Many other things, there's a lot of work to be done as well. But yes, it is a gendered experience. Come on, it is.
June Carolyn Erlick:
Steve, you want to push back a bit?
Steve Ortega:
No, I kind agree. Look, it's competition, it's men who don't have to go to war but can find other ways to compete in things where there's a winner and a loser and there's a champion and somebody can ultimately declare victory.
I think it's sort of deeply embedded in this sort of male desire to win. I mean, it doesn't... Look, there's a Women's World Cup, there're women's games as well.
So I mean there are situations where women compete in the same way. I'm not saying that, but I do think that if you look at gatherings, they tend to be men sort of coming together and bonding to root for a particular team.
Darren Graves:
I was saying if you just look at who are the main characters and who is the presumed audience, it is a gendered experience like a hundred percent.
June Carolyn Erlick:
Okay, so it's a gendered experience, but we're a Latin American center here. So why is this important to Latin America?
Steve Ortega:
Because you've got some great teams in the competition. You have Brazil and Argentina, two of the eight teams who have ever won the World Cup. And Uruguay I should say, you've got three teams who've won World Cup.
Only eight teams historically have ever won the World Cup. You've got Costa Rica, who's this kind of rising Latin American power. You've got Mexico who is always very competitive. It's really an opportunity, I think, to watch some of the best soccer in the world from these Latin American teams.
Darren Graves:
And I can't believe that Steve being the historian, now I'm going to take the historical angle here, but yes. Well historically when you talk about, especially Brazil and Argentina, they broke up a hegemony of European sort of domination in football.
And so I remember I was talking before about rooting across borders and things like that. I feel like South American teams, particularly Brazil, but not just Brazil, I think can become the people's teams or people who feel disenfranchised in the world. People who might feel the after effects of colonialism can start to, might root for teams like Brazil or Mexico because they see a little bit of themselves as they're gazing from the African continent or from South Asia or somewhere else.
Or maybe as folks who are living in Europe or North America, but have an identity that feels ostracized. And so I think the Latin American teams, and I also feel like the African teams sort of fall in this category as well, sometimes, we'll save that for a different podcast, fall into teams that people that the world can get behind, especially if they feel like they're being underestimated or they're trying to push back against hegemony.
June Carolyn Erlick:
So how does race figure into this?
Darren Graves:
Now you're talking my language. I think race has so much to do with it, and I'm thinking about Brazil in particular. For me as a black man in the United States, it's super easy for me to glom onto Brazil when I'm looking at a whole bunch of bodies out there and folks who are experiencing similar things to black folks like me.
And so race has everything to do with it when we think, I don't know if I'm going too far ahead of myself when we're talking about Pele and Maradona, these were folks in both their contexts. They don't look necessarily phenotypically typically exactly the same, but they were both considered black in their specific context.
And so to talk about breaking hegemony from a racial lens, these titans of football were black men who were taking over this worldwide thing that people were commuting around that was usually dominated by folks who did not look like them or much less come from the meager backgrounds that they came from.
Steve Ortega:
I just want to add too, I left out Ecuador and I... Discussing the different teams and of course Ecuador, it's a big deal for Ecuador to go to the World Cup.
And Ecuador is a team that hasn't kind of risen to the level of success that Brazil and Argentina has, but a very, very strong South American team.
June Carolyn Erlick:
You've talked about Brazil and Argentina, which are obviously very big countries, but you're also talking about these little countries, I mean Ecuador, Costa Rica, Uruguay, how did that come about?
Steve Ortega:
Good football associations. I mean Costa Rica and the 2014 World Cup went to the quarter finals, the last eight in the world. Uruguay won two of the first four World Cups.
Now the first World Cup was principally dominated by South American teams because the European teams couldn't get there. It was played in 1930 and it was difficult across the Atlantic and it was expensive and things like that.
So that obviously played to the Uruguayan's advantage, but nonetheless, they won, and then came back and won again in 1950. There are programs around the world, Costa Rica being one, Uruguay being another.
Iceland is another country that has done incredibly well, given its size. Holland is not a huge country. They're good kind of national programs that recruit people and train them and prepare them for professional soccer careers.
Darren Graves:
I also think for, just for folks who may not understand how folks qualify for the World Cup, is that the world is in soccer terms it's sort of cut up into different regions and those regions then have to compete against each other to then get certain spots. And so teams like Costa Rica and Mexico are in a region that includes United States, Canada, sort of North America in quotes.
And then Uruguay is going to be competing against teams like Argentina, Brazil, Chile, South Ecuador, Peru, South American, Colombia. Some of this is about how strong you are compared to your other regional teams at any given time.
And so Costa Rica is only going to be competing against who they compete against, sort of easier in some ways for Costa Rica to get into the World Cup than it is for Uruguay to get in the World Cup because there's a little more competition in the South... it's stiffer competition in the South American region than there is playing Trinidad and Tobago, the United States and other teams that aren't necessarily that good.
Steve Ortega:
Just to put it in context, how difficult it is to get in for some countries, Italy who won the Euros last year, a football powerhouse is not going to the World Cup this year, even though they've won the World Cup four times. So the European competition qualification is so competitive that they didn't make it.
June Carolyn Erlick:
You mentioned Pele and Maradona, and I'm wondering for those of our listeners who aren't soccer followers, if you could explain who they are and what they mean?
And also are there any stars or any people we should be keeping our eyes on from Latin America during these games?
Steve Ortega:
Pele and Maradona are the two great kind of iconic... Pele, a Brazilian player, and Maradona, an Argentinian player. They actually did not play at the same time as Pele was retiring, Maradona was starting his career.
What is notable about then is Pele won three World Cups. Maradona won one, an iconic world, iconic victory from me Maradona in 1986 in Mexico when a goal he scored was called the Hand of God, where the ball kind of touches his hand, but it goes into the goal, nobody pays much attention and they beat England, which had huge political significance.
Both come from poor backgrounds. Both are people who, there's this sense they kind of have the weight of a nation on their backs and they're players who become these incredible global icons. In 1967 in Nigeria, Pele travels to Nigeria and the war with the Afra actually there's a ceasefire for three days just to have Pele there.
So I mean it shows his kind of world significance. Maradona is a guy who ends up at playing his club soccer at Monopoly, which is not one of the great powerful teams in Italy and wins championships there.
So sort of brings the Neapolitan Club this huge, huge amount of attention and success and that is something that's looked on favorably. Maradona was also a very political person. He embraced people like Fidel Castro. He was somebody who wasn't scared to mix it up in politics, very much the working man's player.
Darren Graves:
Steve inadvertently lost every friend of ours who lives in England when he said the phrase, the hand touched the ball, touched his hand in the hand of God, when you're talking about Maradona because I think other folks might have seen it more of like Maradona punching the ball into the goal. But nicely done there Ortega.
In terms of stars to think about now, I mean very big ones, I mean. So the first one that comes to mind is Lionel Messi, who is hands down the number one sort of football star in the world. Definitely not at his peak at this point in his career, but is still just an absolute magician in terms of scoring and passing.
And so he definitely has the most name and brand recognition in the world, and so he's just a big star. Plays for Argentina and has the World Cup success has been very elusive for Messi and that's been a big part of his... He's been... He has had so won so many different things in his career and his club career with Barcelona, but elusive World Cup success, that's been a part of his narrative and especially when juxtapose with Maradona, like he's carrying this weight of trying to even be able to stand on the same level with him. And so that's one big star from South America.
Another one from Brazil would be Neymar Junior who plays for Paris Saint-Germain right now in France. But a big Brazilian star, former teammate of Messi at Barcelona who's just also, again, I think probably right behind Messi in terms of name and brand recognition, very flamboyant, plays for Brazil, and so Brazil and Argentina have a massive history and competition with each other.
So those are the two big teams. I'm sure I can name other players, but I think those are the big ones you want to hold onto. I don't know if Ortega you want to add any.
Steve Ortega:
I do want to add that if Messi or Neymar wins a World Cup for their country, they will be eternally loved. It is something that will exist in perpetuity. It is such a big deal to be champions of the world, to hold that trophy up in front of billions of people and to say we are champions.
I mean it's something that generations later people will remember. And there is the pressure because as Darren mentioned, Maradona did accomplish that in 1986. Pele did it three times even though one of the times he was injured I think in 1962.
So for Neymar or Messi not to accomplish that, not to win a World Cup becomes also a part of their legacy, becomes a part. It really changes the narrative on your career.
June Carolyn Erlick:
That's very interesting. It's interesting that you mentioned a Latin American playing for another team. Is that common? What is the Latin American influence beyond the teams in Latin America?
Darren Graves:
For those of us who may not be as deep into the soccer knowledge, when they're not doing this once every four years, national or international tournament, many of these players play for basically club teams. In the United States, the equivalent of the Major League baseball or National Football league. These teams are all over the world. Some of them are, yes, they're in Latin America, in Brazil, in Argentina, in Columbia and there's a lot of club teams that are there and big ones, especially in Argentina, I'm thinking like River Plate and Boca Juniors or whom I in Brazil theaters blanking right now. Flamenco
Steve Ortega:
Santos, right? I mean who Pele plays for most of his career.
Darren Graves:
Most of the biggest in, most prominent club teams, again speaking to European hegemony are in Europe, they're in England, they're in France, they're in Spain, they're in Italy, Germany. And so many of those players play over there.
So we want to go back to Messi, which is another part of Messi's legacy. Messi for the most part, but most of his life, not in Argentina. He spent most of his life in Spain because he was training with Barcelona, which is a massive club team. And so a team Barcelona then now has many, many players from Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, like all over Latin America in England and all over the place.
There's just too many to name in terms of the amount of players that are doing that. And I think another dimension to this too, I let Ortega get in, is some of the countries have so much talent. The South Americans have so much talent that the prospects of getting on their national teams are so slim that players are then gaining dual nationality to other European countries or other countries and then playing for those countries as a way to just be able to get onto the international scene.
Off the top of my head, someone like Georginio, who's Brazilian but plays in Italy. Thiago Alcântara is another Brazilian, there's many Brazilians, Thiago Alcântara plays for Spain. There's many, many Brazilians who have taken up nationalities in other mainly European countries.
June Carolyn Erlick:
So will we see this during the World Cup?
Steve Ortega:
Yes, there are people who play from different nationalities, but it more relates to the club team experience. I mean there definitely are players who, like Georginio, who Darren just mentioned is Italian national player originally comes from Brazil. Thiago Alcântara, who actually did not make the Spanish national team is a Brazilian.
Maybe what's more interesting though is the fact that Messi had spent so much time in Spain that it was considered a problem for a lot of Argentinians. I mean it was is he one of us? Or is he one of them?
He actually had obtained a Spanish passport. He could have originally played for the Spanish national team, but he chose to, again, the big story was Messi. He wants to win the affections of the Argentine people and by winning a World Cup with Argentina that will make that happen.
Darren Graves:
I did do a little research to look at some players who are Latin American who might be in the World Cup who are playing for other teams and this is the best that I could do. So we have Jesus Ferreira who was playing for the US but was actually born in Columbia.
We have Cristian Roldan who is playing for the US but is eligible actually for either Guatemala or El Salvador because of his parents and his brother Alex actually does play for El Salvador. And we have Jonathan Osorio who placed for Canada, his parents were born in Colombia. And then we have two folks from Switzerland, Roberto Rodríguez, his father is from Spain and his mother is from Chile. And then we have Ruben Vargas who's from, who also placed for Switzerland whose father is from the Dominican Republic.
June Carolyn Erlick:
Interesting. So let's switch to another subject: politics.
The World Cups being held in Qatar and there have been so many allegations of money, of corruption, of taking place in a country where their are human rights abuses. Is the World Cup worth it? What's at stake here? What are the issues?
Steve Ortega:
This is a very complicated question for football fans because as we know, the World Cup was awarded to Qatar in 2010, the same time that the 2018 World Cup was awarded to Russia.
Subsequently, all sorts of claims and a case that was put together by the US Justice Department, massive corruption allowed the countries to get this World Cup.
And I think the countries would probably argue there's a lot of corruption in football in general. FIFA is not an organization that is unfamiliar with corruption. It's something certainly the two of us are very conscious of. And if somebody said, do you want to go to Qatar and watch the World Cup? I think I would say no for the reasons that have been discussed.
Darren Graves:
I just want to be more clear for the audience about the layers of politics to this. So one is you're saying the process of getting a World Cup is, I don't know, are you inherently corrupt? It's really just about who can gather the most, splash the most cash and make the best offer and make it happen.
And so that's just a process that's like rife with corruption in general. And it was definitely documented in this case in Qatar and some feel, and I think the countries feel like, well why all this scrutiny on us as opposed to everyone else? So I could understand that. So that's one layer to it.
Second layer is the working conditions of folks who are employed to make all these stadiums and accommodations was also well documented that many thousands of folks, workers died. Very inhumane working conditions to make this grand spectacle happen, and so that's another layer to the political mess that this is.
And it's been interesting to see the ways that different football associations have across the world have been either in solidarity with fellow workers who are working under horrible conditions or football associations who have been silent, who have just been showing up on a plane in Qatar like in the last three days. So that's another layer to this.
And then I think the third layer with Qatar in particular is that they have their own particular laws and cultural values around LGBTQ rights in particular. And many advocates of LGBTQ see it is not a very safe place. And so there's been a lot of concern about what does it mean to go to this place where I can't live freely in that regard. As a soccer team, the captains often wear an arm band around their sort of bicep to denote them as the captain.
And there's been a lot of movement to try and wear these rainbow captains arm bands as a way to at least stand in solidarity. Some people are going to do it, some people aren't. Some people say, hey, no, this is Qatar, I'm going to respect their customs. I'm not going to blow it up in their face. Other people are saying, hey, this is a big world stage, that sort of a thing.
So those are the different layers to you decide whether you should be watching, participating, enjoying the festivities of the World Cup. I, like Steve, will end up watching it. I love the competition, I love the sport. I definitely watch it.
I understand that by watching it, I'm participating in this, I am supporting that. You have to be clear about that, right? Because watching it is part of it. I think we all make that bargain in so many ways when it comes to so much of the things that we consume in this life. And we think we have to... I wouldn't have a problem with people boycotting it. I wouldn't have a problem with that. I could totally understand that.
Steve Ortega:
Obviously all of the 32 teams who qualified to go to the World Cup going. But there are different ways, as Darren mentioned, some will wear a rainbow band, some will wear different types of jerseys to protest the terrible things that have been done to the workers there.
Some people have made the argument, you go there, you can bring greater exposure to that. Others say that's not true, you need to boycott. That's the only way that you can really put pressure on the countries. But again, it's a really complicated issue. I mean the 2018 World Cup was held in Russia, right, too, where similar problems, or maybe not exactly the same problems, but other problems exist.
Others have mentioned that why should World Cups always be held in Western nations in the United States or Europe or something like that. That's one of the things the countries have put forward, it's a type of racism that's being directed against them.
Why shouldn't a Middle Eastern country be able to host? I certainly understand why people would boycott this World Cup and I've talked to a lot of people, soccer lovers who are considering that. We'll see how that plays out. The sport draws you in, the competition draws you in.
It's the winter, it's cold here, it's cold in a lot of parts of the world. I think we look for reasons to celebrate and hopefully in this World Cup things will happen where enough attention will be brought to the political issues that exist in Qatar and change will take place.
Darren Graves:
Real quick, it really reminds you of 1968 Olympics, where a lot of black athletes, American athletes were deciding, do I go to the Olympics? Do I boycott? Many decided to boycott, others decided to go and then use that opportunity as a platform.
And that created the iconic moment with John Carlos and the black track players who were raising their fists at the podium. So yeah, we could see a mix of both. I could see several other things happening, some people trying to opt out of this thing altogether. Some people trying to use the platform. So it'd really be interesting to see what happens.
Steve Ortega:
It will create a volatile political mix, put it that way.
June Carolyn Erlick:
It'll be interesting. Let's talk about another kind of mix, get down to the nitty gritty to close up.].
Who's in the field? Who are the favorites? Who are your favorites? What's going on with Latin America?
Steve Ortega:
Well, for all intentions and purposes, I guess Argentina has considered to be the favorite. If you look at some people who are forecasting the World Cup. Argentina now is, I think rated the top team in the world.
Obviously this is Messi's last chance to win a World Cup. I'm not sure that's the case. I kind of think Brazil has a better chance of winning the World Cup than Argentina. I think this is an incredibly strong Brazilian team.
Brazil has not won the World Cup since 2002. That's actually a long stretch. The Brazilians are a pretty consistent performer. They've won five World Cups more than anybody else. And I think they come to this World Cup with a stronger team than they have in years.
Darren Graves:
Just to be clear for the rest, for folks, there's other big teams out there. France is a big power out there. Germany's another one, England's another big one. So usually these European sort of Hegemons that are usually out there that are lurking, usually trying to win this thing.
Here's the thing, what usually happens is that when these World Cups move to more warm weather nations, the European teams kind of fizzle out with the heat. They can't really keep up. And that usually favors the South American powers. And so that's why I think Brazil or Argentina is not a bad pick, I think.
I'm personally pooling for, in this case for a few different reasons, Brazil, and that's just for a few reasons. One, I'm a big fan of, we were talking about the club teams before, so I'm a big fan of Football Club Arsenal, which is in London, and they have a few Brazilian stars on the team, Gabriel Jesus and Gabriel Martinelli, and so I'm kind of rooting for my players.
I just like the Brazil team in general because they look like they're going to play a, and they usually do, play a really exciting brand of soccer that's just easy on the eye. And then the last reason I'm rooting for Brazil is that here in Boston. So you're talking about in the celebrations.
So here in Boston we have a very robust Brazilian community. So, if and when Brazil wins this thing, Boston is going to, the Boston area as far out as Framingham, we are going to have, it's going to be a big party in this part of the world. And so I will root for that as well.
Steve Ortega:
So I have to say as a long time FC Barcelona supporter, it's very hard for me to move against messy. He's gone and played at another team, no fault of his own though. I mean that had more to do with club politics and finances.
I just think for a player who's been so great, a player who has been so successful at so many different levels that this will be his crowning achievement. I mean this will literally... People will never forget it and he will be able to vault himself up to one of the great greats of all time.
If he fails again, that will remain a criticism. So I think for Messi, I think Brazil has a stronger team, but I think for Messi to win, it would just be incredible. It would cement his place in all-time football history.
Darren Graves:
Agreed.
June Carolyn Erlick:
I was going to ask, if Steve had to put money down, would he do it on Argentina?
Steve Ortega:
No, no, Brazil.
Darren Graves:
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Steve Ortega:
I think Brazil's got a better... sorry, Argentina, sorry to throw you under the bus, but I think Brazil's got a better team.
Darren Graves:
Can I give you a quick USA Latin America angle? How about that? So the United States of America is also, I don't know, a team in the World Cup that's competing, by the way, who's in this, which is not a guarantee by the way, because we missed, what, the last two I think? I can't remember.
But to me, one of my laments about the USA team, and I think this is part of some of the ways that the USA team is recruiting or not recruiting their players, is that to me the USA team really should be a little less indistinguishable from the Mexico team.
And what I mean by that is that there's a vibrant community of real football, football community, especially around in the south and the southwest of Mexican American folks who aren't tied into, or the US team isn't plugged into those communities and they're more tied into communities that have resources and the big fields and the travel teams, that whole thing.
So I know that there is a big part of the, and by the way, there's a few, I don't remember exactly who, but there's a few players from the United States who have decided to play for Mexico instead, by the way, because they could. Dual citizenship. But I think we could be doing a way better job of tapping into our Latin American communities in the US who live, breathe soccer and football. And then I think we'd be a better national team. And I think it would almost be another Latin American team to root for in a weird way, if that makes sense.
Steve Ortega:
So, June, somebody has made the comment that the most followed and loved sports club in the United States is the Mexican national team. You go to games, particularly in the southwest on the west coast, and there are more people supporting the Mexican national team than supporting the US team. So the Mexican national team, there will be a lot of people in the US rooting for the Mexican national team.
Darren Graves:
Any of those games, any of the Latin American teams that come to play in the United States and they play in California, Texas, any, I don't care, Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, any of those teams, Columbia, they will take over that stadium. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
Steve Ortega:
I want to say something to the fans who will end up listening. I think that this is something where you kind of attach yourself to a team and maybe that team wins, maybe they don't. But then you can just attach yourself to another team, I think, you can find love in many places. And I think this is a wonderful tournament. There won't be another one for four years.
They're talking about changing it to two years, but there's a beauty in every four years. So I think that this is something really to enjoy. I think we can all agree the people who are running it are certainly not the best people in the world. There are lots of questions surrounding their motives, the types of things that we talked about in regard to Qatar.
But the people who actually play the games, there's an incredible amount of beauty in it. And those are the people we're looking to support. So there may be a game you watch and you may watch a player you've never seen before, and now this player becomes one of your favorite players. And then you turn to the club team and then you buy a shirt and then before you know it, you're hooked. It's an opportunity to come together with people. It's an opportunity to learn new things. It's an opportunity to just really enjoy an incredible sport.
Darren Graves:
I couldn't agree more. I mean, I'll just end on saying this. Steve knows you all can't see this, but I'm wearing one of my soccer jerseys and I often walk around in the world when I don't have to be in my work uniform, in my soccer jerseys, I have a variety of kind.
And the best part about it, and Steve knows this, I tell him this all the time. I walk through airports, I walk through the store, walk down the street, and someone will see the Jersey. People who don't... People all walks of life will just see the jersey and strike up a conversation or say, oh my gosh, yes. Or oh, you like that team? Right?
And so to me, and just playing the game, it's such a... Yes to me, what I know that I love about the sport, and Steve and I love about the sport, is that it's a way that it brings the world to you in so many ways and it helps connect you with so many different people, not in a hokey way.
It helps you. We know, look, there's so much, it's so fraught and so political, but it's beautiful. It really is. So I couldn't agree more.
Steve Ortega:
Yeah, I would agree with Darren. If you find a team you're supporting, get a shirt, walk around, you'll have a bunch of new friends.
And if that's right, if your team doesn't win in the end, that's probably more important.
June Carolyn Erlick:
That's a wonderful way to conclude. Thank you for being with us on Faculty Voices. You've been listening to Steve Ortega, who is an affiliate at Harvard's Weatherhead Center for International Affairs and to Darren Graves, who is a lecturer at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Together they call themselves the sports profs. Thank you for being here.